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Thursday, March 18, 2010

A debate with a Quranist

I came across a website for the so called Quranists, I felt frustrated from the unawareness/ignorance of those people.

Here is what I read , and follows is my answer.
1- They said: The Prophet's sole mission was to deliver Quran, the whole Quran, and nothing but Quran .

I say : Wrong! , In addition to that , Allah said : " And we have sent down unto Thee the Message; that Thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them" 16:44.

So his role was not only to deliver but to explain , which is apparently and additional task than just delivering the package and running away.

2- They said: Moreover, the Prophet was enjoined in the strongest words from issuing any religious teachings besides the Quran (69:38-47)

Which is : "
38. so I do call to witness what ye see,

39. and what ye see not,

40. that This is Verily the word of an honoured apostle;

41. it is not the word of a poet: Little it is ye believe!

42. nor is it the word of a soothsayer: Little admonition it is ye receive.

43. (this is) a Message sent down from the Lord of the worlds.

44. and if the apostle were to invent any sayings In Our name,

45. we should certainly seize Him by His right hand,

46. and we should certainly then cut off the artery of His heart:

47. nor could any of you withhold Him (from Our wrath). "

I say : Bad interpretation , These Ayas (verses) states that the prophet cannot say anything other than what Allah told him to say , Allah says :

"Nor does He say (aught) of (his own) desire 53/3" which means that anything that comes out of his mouth is a revelation. Did the prophet speak nothing but the Quran in his entire life ? , Didn't he teach his Ummah (Nation) how to pray , fast or perform Haj in details ? where is that in the Quran.
3 - They said : He was even enjoined from explaining the Quran (75:15-19)

Which is : "

15. Even though He were to put up His excuses.

16. move not Thy tongue concerning the (Qur'an) to make haste therewith.

17. it is for us to collect it and to promulgate it:

18. but when we have promulgated it, follow Thou its recital (as promulgated):

19. nay more, it is for us to explain it (and make it clear):"

I say : If this how they see it then they should say that Allah lied cuz he didn't say how to pray , perform Haj or give out Zakah , which clearly means that he will explain it through the prophets actions or words.

4 - They said : God is the only teacher of the Quran (55:1-2)

which is : "

1. ((Allah)) Most Gracious!

2. it is He who has taught the Qur'an."

I say : Of course he is the one who taught the Quran! , he taught it to the prophet , and then ordered him to do 2 things : -Deliver & Explain : Allah said : " And we have sent down unto Thee the Message; that Thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them" 16:44.

Or did Allah gather man in a Halaqas and taught them the Quran ?!

5 - They said : and the Quran is the best Hadith (39:23 & 45:6).

which is : "

"Allah has revealed (from time to time) the Most beautiful Message In the form of a Book" 39:23

"Such are the Signs of Allah, which we rehearse to Thee In truth; then In what exposition will They believe after (rejecting) Allah and His Signs? " 45:6

I say : No comment !

6 - They said : The Quran has prophesied the fabrication of Hadith and Sunna by the Prophet's enemies (6:112-115)

Which is : "

112. likewise did we make for every Messenger an enemy,- evil ones among men and jinns, inspiring Each other with flowery discourses by way of deception. if Thy Lord had so planned, They would not have done it: so leave them and their inventions alone.

113. to such (deceit) let the hearts of those incline, who have no Faith In the Hereafter: let them delight In it, and let them earn from it what They may.

114. say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah. - when He it is who hath sent unto you the Book, explained In detail." They know full well, to whom we have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from Thy Lord In Truth. never be then of those who doubt.

115. the word of Thy Lord doth find its fulfilment In truth and In justice: none can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all."

I say : Again if this how they see it then Allah must have lied cuz he didn't say how to pray , perform Haj or give out Zakah , which clearly means that he will explain it through the prophets actions and words.

The meaning here is that the Quran has explained everything : True belief , Laws all in details , There is nothing in the Sunnah that has no origin in the Quran , for example Allah said in general "Pray" , he informed us that he wants us to pray , then he asked us to follow the prophet , so does this order or law alone enough to explain in details how to pray ?

Note : Put in mind that the Quran was meant to be revealed/sent in a way that could be memorized by heart - unlike other books - so if every single detail was mentioned in it , it would not be possible to memorize the whole scripture

Finally they said : Ironically, the books of Hadith report the Prophet's orders to write down nothing from him except the Quran! Shown below are two such Hadiths taken from the Hadithists' most reliable sources, Sahih Muslim and Is-haah Ahmad Ibn Hanbal. :

- The Prophet said, "Do not write down anything from me except the Quran." [Ahmed, Vol. 1, Page 171, and Sahih Muslim]

-This Hadith states that the Prophet maintained his anti-Hadith stand until death. [Ahmed, Vol. 1, Page 192]

I said : What is more ironic than that ? using hadith to disprove hadith? if they say hadith is invalid then they shouldn't have even mentioned this , but if they mean that us "Sunnis" contradict ourselves then here is the answer :
Those Hadith that establish the objection to writing the Hadith are nullified and the objection was only when there was fear that recording the Hadith and the Qur'an in the same pamphlet might cause confusion .
There are many Ahadith that allow writing the Hadith.
Al-Bukhari and Muslim reported from Abu Hurairah that "a man called Abu Shah from Yemen attended the sermon that the Prophet gave the day of the conquest of Makkah he (this man) said: 'Write for me' (what has been said in the sermon). The Prophet said: "Write for Abu Shah ".
Al-Bukhari reported from Abu Hurairah that he said: "None of the companions of the Prophet knew more Hadith than I except Abdullah Ibn Umar because he used to record and I did not use to record" .
So , In conclusion , It was not permissible to write at the very early time of revelation so as to not confuse the Prophets words with the Allahs words, Later on when the Muslims grew stronger and Islam was established in their hearts they were permitted to write it DURING HIS TIME , not like your fellow Quranists claim that it was written after his death.
"He who shuns my Sunnah is not from me.” [Al-Bukhaari]

Finally , True hadiths does not contradict in anyway with the Quran , while false ones of course will since they have been fabricated , The study of how to proof if a hadith is authentic or not is a very very wide science , and If you read the biography of SOME of the authors of the hadith's books like Bukhri or Muslim you will know how much those people suffered to differentiate between what is right from what is wrong .

But note that the slogan of the Quranists - according to their websites - is : The Prophet's sole mission was to deliver Quran, the whole Quran, and nothing but Quran, which means denying not only the false hadith but also the true ones ...

In the same manner , if you doubt the Hadith then you should doubt the Bible , since both - as claimed regarding the Sunnah - were written decades after the death of their prophets , Moreover , The bible is mostly stories told by people who did not even witness Jesus while saying them , which is not the case in the Sunnah..."

to be continued....


Brownie said...

Although I find your answer is very impressive and comprehensive, I would like to add a verse from the Quraan that shows that the Prophet's PBUH mission was not only delivering the Quraan as it is which is { لَقَدْ كَانَ لَكُمْ فِي رَسُولِ اللَّهِ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ لِّمَن كَانَ يَرْجُو اللَّه َ
وَالْيَوْمَ الْآخِرَ وَذَكَرَ اللَّهَ كَثِيراً }الأحزاب21

So we are obliged to learn from him PBUH and also if Allah SWT sent the prophet only to deliver the Quraan only, He could have sent saydna Gebril instead directly to us, because saydna Gebril mission was to deliver the Quraan to the prophet PBUH and then it’s the prophet role is to deliver, explain, and teach.

Looking forward for more posts, that was strong start ;)

Brownie said...
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TheSphere said...

Thank you Safaa for your valuable comment , It actually inspired me of what I'm going to write in my next post...Cheers ; )

Grettel- said...

1. You are right he should explain the words of the Quran. I don't know here in Belgium anyone who understands the words. Children learn to read the Arabic text in the Quran. But they don't learn meaning. How can this help people to truly believe?

In every believe there are messengers. Without them a believe is nothing. Go look it up. You shall find everywhere (maybe sometimes false) prophets.

But there is more.

Like I said before to you my friend. Your believe can only grow stronger when one day you have doubted it. You have asked questions where you couldn't find an answer in the written or obvious sources.

Then you go search bit further. Go search deeper. Talk about it. Search for the truth. Doubt more, and doubt less.

When found your answer. Who has given you?

Right. Your messenger. In this case. He explains the words from the Quran. But he also takes away your question you should be asking if you truly want to believe.

The other parts I go read another time. :) My pupils need a lesson Monday. I need to prepare myself now. ;)

Mohamed said...

With the collapse of Ja'far Al Sadiq's empire in Iran and Ibn Hanbal's slow demise in Saudi Arabia, the tide is turning and the fictitous sects that emerged during the Abbasid Empire knows as the Sunni and Shia sects and others who follow man made revelations known as hadiths are slowly collapsing. Malik's Empire in Sudan is collapsing and Abu Hanifa's Empire in Pakistan is turning upside down. The so called Islamic states have proven to be ideologically obsolete and in the wrong side of history. The sects are on life support and the Koranist will take over. So who are the Koranist?

The Koranist believe only the Koran should speak for Islam.

Real Islam is only Quran

Asfora said...

Salaam Aleykum
More about Quranists can be found on this website The Quranists Network

Anonymous said...

I have some questions for quranists.
1. If Quran is simple to understand and doesnt need any explanation like hadiths etc. then why quranists themselves wrote its explanation e.g explanations of Dr. Shabbir and G.A Parvez.
2. If people of the ist generation knew that Hadith was not the source of law then what was the reason for fabricating the hadith as people were already aware of it.

Anonymous said...


Asfora said...

Salaam Aleykum - Just letting you know about the new re-vamped Quranists Welcome Pack thanks :)

Minari said...

"I have some questions for quranists.
1. If Quran is simple to understand and doesnt need any explanation like hadiths etc. then why quranists themselves wrote its explanation e.g explanations of Dr. Shabbir and G.A Parvez.
2. If people of the ist generation knew that Hadith was not the source of law then what was the reason for fabricating the hadith as people were already aware of it."

1. Not all Qur;anist reject ALL hadiths, some hadith don't even make sense and some are just cruel ex. killing homosexuals etc. People naturally approach hadiths as being the words of God bc we are taught to accept ALL the Quran, but hadiths are INFERENCES of what our holy prophet phub said! Also the Qur'an does tell us EXACTLY how to pray, BUT it explicilty says WE MUST PRAY therefore we will look to hadiths (the best one, bc many people pray differently) and pray accordingly. NO WHERE in the Quran is there mention of killing of ex-muslim but hadiths have it. Murdering innocent is forbidden so how is this Allah swt words?
2. During the Islamic rennaissance many did quesyion hadiths, and still do. That's why Islam has so many sects! Quranists have always existed (ex. people who have only access to the Quran, physical or through a person). Many Muslim countries even take a Quranist approach (ex no killing of infidels in Turkey etc)

Minari said...

"So we are obliged to learn from him PBUH and also if Allah SWT sent the prophet only to deliver the Quraan only, He could have sent saydna Gebril instead directly to us, because saydna Gebril mission was to deliver the Quraan to the prophet PBUH and then it’s the prophet role is to deliver, explain, and teach."

Why would Allah swt send an angel alone without a prophet that can relate to everyone? Imagine if some walked up to you, that no one knew, and said I'm from Allah swt and obey this book? pure, intelligent, admirable prophet phub is necessary for people to follow the religion, and trust the person with the message.

daved said...

How much of Quran does hadith explain. is salat procedure detailed in hadith? Arent there hadith that claim the prophet and the caliphs forbade recording of hadith? do u believe all hadith? why are some classified as weak? why were hadith not compiled and standardized at same time as Quran if they were important. why is it that the caliphs have very few recorded hadiths yet they were the closest to the prophet. why sahabas did not compile hadith and only people hundreds of years later are the ones who did it. were they prophets that they were instructed or guided by ALLAH ? Compared to Quran, how do hadith stack up. would you rather believe in a divine revealation which was promised to be protected or a compilation of sayings by people who did not have divine instruction to do so? how can any hadith be fully relied upon if some are classified as weak. ever heard of a weak ayat?

Anonymous said...

"to be continued.... "

was it continued?


First of all, everything including hajj, zakat and prayers and details of prayer are explained in the quran, Islamic prayer was taught to Abraham and it was passed down to Christians, Jews, Muslims, Muhammad pbuh did not create prayers.
Your so brainwashed by the Hadith and scholars, how dare you reply with "so Allah lied" even as an example, everything is in the Quran, you just have to look, your so used to being told what to do you blasphemous stupid sheep. Your Quran quotes are all partial pieces of verses you ignorant hadithists take out of context to suit your agenda, when you read the full verse then the truth comes dare you compare a man made book to Allahs word, how dare you compare a mans word side by side with Allahs, may god have mercy on your soul, keep following your satanic Hadith and worshipping a man more than god, prophet Muhammad pbuh was no better than any prophet before his time and if you actually read the Quran instead of masturbating to the hadith you would know god made that clear. Fucking clowns.

Ahmed Moustafa said...
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Ahmed Moustafa said...
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ThisIsTheTruthUncut said...

Hi everyone!

Tonight The Jinn And Tonic Show will be discussing Quranism, and the claim that Hadiths cannot be trusted and contradict the Quran.

It's a blogTV show so you can just watch if you wish. If you would like to call into the show you need to have Skype installed (details at the top of the page linked)

The show is on tonight (December 1st) at 9PM GMT. I hope so see some of you there, and please do share this message as much as you can!

Anonymous said...

Hadiths should not be used as religious guidance. The Quran is there for that. Hadiths can be used for historical reasons- like what happened (E.g. Battle of Uhud) But THEY CANNOT BE USED AS RELIGIOUS TEACHINGS.
Scholars have lied and made up lots of hadiths which are Anti Woman such as "Woman have to have sex with their husband or they'll be cursed by the angels"

Most so called "muslim" scholars are lustful and want to abuse women. So they use hadiths to trap woman- only the stupid women will fall for this death trap.

meurdrac said...

I think you're operating under a false understanding of how hadiths are discerned. Quranists are no more Hadith rejectors than are the Ja'fari, Zaidi, Ibadi, Ismaili, Hanafi, Shafi'i, Maliki, or the Hanbali. Each school of fiqh rejects certain hadith for different specific reasons. Different schools judge different hadith as sahih (authentic), hasan (good) and da'if (weak) than the other schools do. You're under the false assumption that there's some kind of authoritative volume that ALL Muslims accept. Take prayer for instance. Should we pray with our arms at our sides, or folded up in a certain manner? The Shia schools and some Sunni (Maliki) pray with their arms at their sides, while the other schools fold their arms. The people who want you to believe that there's some kind of uniform way that Muslims have always done this are not telling you the whole story. I think what we can come to understand from this is that we're blessed in Islam with flexibility and diversity. We submit but we're not all robots, doing everything in complete uniformity. I believe that this is a Blessing of Allah for all mankind.

arifagorilla said...

Quranists are the breed that like to follow their own desires over that of Allah (swt) & the Messenger (saw). How is that? The hadiths are the explanations given to us by Muhammad (saws) either for a verse of the Quran or a ruling for our daily lives. It is not haram to reject hadiths per se, but it is haram to disobey the prophet (saw) and obviously it's haram to alter the meaning of the Quran.

So the question a Quranists should ask themselves is, are they in a better position to explain the meaning of the Quran's ambiguous verses over the Messenger (saw) or the sahabas? imagine if you knowingly and willingly rejected hadith which are in fact the words of Muhammad (saw), do you think after Allah (swt) warning us umpteenth times in the Quran to "Obey the Messenger" that Allah (Swt) is going to accept your rejection of genuine hadiths? or is he more likely to forgive you for following a hadith which was incorrectly narrated? when HE Himself has told us in the Quran to obey those in authority in the same ayat as telling us to obey Allah and obey the Messenger (4:59)

He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah ; but those who turn away - We have not sent you over them as a guardian. (4:80)

arifagorilla said...

Any claims that the hadiths came 200 years after Muhammad (saw) are false, Bukhari came 200 years after Muhammad (saw) and not the hadiths. Imam Malik's and Imam Hanifi collected hadiths and they were approx 80 years after Muhammad (saw). The sahabas DURING the time of Muhammad (saw) wrote hadiths as we can see by testimonies within hadiths. So hadiths were written down during the life of Muhammad (saw) and with his permission, yes to start of with they were not allowed but later on they were allowed, during the lifetime of Muhammad (saw). If it wasn't for the great companions of Muhammad (saw) we (the majority of Muslims) would be confused. Allah (swt) felt the need to send an explainer with the Quran for a reason, so to reject that explainers explanation would just be plain stupid or deliberate disbelief. The same sahabas that were trusted with the Quran and made it into a book (without orders from Allah (swt) or Muhammad (saw)) are the same sahabas that narrated hadiths.

Salaf said...

Subhanallah is that how a real Muslim talks. Ur nothing but an arrogant kafir who will perish in hell

Anonymous said...

When your using the Quran as a reference, please try to consider ALL the verses of the Quran that refer to what exactly is the Prophet Muhammad's role to humanity.

16:82 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message

4:79-80 Say:'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."

17:53-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you with power to determine their Faith

24.54. Say: "Obey God, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.

42:6 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach

64:12 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.

28.55-56 And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say: "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we seek not the ignorant," It is true thou wilt not be able to guide whom thou lovest; but God guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance

So from these verses we can conclude the prophet's only duty was to preach and deliver the 'Message.' So what is/was the Message?

You decide.

Aadish Rahman said...
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Aadish Rahman said...
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Aadish Rahman said...

"Sayyiduna Ali narrated that a nation will emerge and they will be known as Rawafid; they will claim to be from our group, but in reality they will not be from us; their sign will be that they will abuse Sayyiduna Abu Bakr and Umar..."
(Kanz al-Amal, 11:440)

Aadish Rahman said...

Ali (RA) narrates:
"In the last days of this world there will appear some young foolish people who will use (in their claim) the best speech of all people (i.e. the Qur'an) and they will abandon Islam as an arrow going through the game. Their belief will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have practically no belief), so wherever you meet them, kill them, for he who kills them shall get a reward on the Day of Resurrection."
Sahih Bukhari , Volume 4, Book 56, Number 808

Anonymous said...

Its a shame... theres alot of blind faith around, regardless of wether a quranist or a beliver in Hadith and sunnah... you just look to bring better judgement on an age old argument... Man is no judge rememebr that. How about you just try to better your lives instead or preaching blindly ( Unfortunately which you are as no-one here was alive during the time of the collections). The word of God was spoken as the word of man is corrupt.

Anonymous said...

why are you so worried about the history of Islam jafar al sadiq, Ib hanbal, abbasids etc ..when you don't consider hadiths where the history of Islam is preserved as valid? Well I am sure u have another book from where you are studying this history. So I have questions for you quranists:
When a non Muslim historian tells you that Quran is not the word of all mightly God. Can you prove me that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) even existed historically without referring to any hadith?

And can you tell me, why wasn't Quran revealed to prophet muhammad (pbuh) in single day when u say that the duty of the messenger (pbuh) was ONLY to give us the the Quran and nothing else. But it was reveled in a period of 22 years , in stages so that prophet would teach how and when to implement the verses.

And can please explain me what "Al-hikmah" means in this verse if it doesn't refer to sunnah?
لَقَدْ مَنَّ ٱللَّهُ عَلَى ٱلْمُؤْمِنِينَ إِذْ بَعَثَ فِيهِمْ رَسُولًا مِّنْ أَنفُسِهِمْ يَتْلُوا۟ عَلَيْهِمْ ءَايَٰتِهِۦ وَيُزَكِّيهِمْ وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ ٱلْكِتَٰبَ وَٱلْحِكْمَةَ وَإِن كَانُوا۟ مِن قَبْلُ لَفِى ضَلَٰلٍ مُّبِينٍ
Indeed Allah conferred a great favour on the believers when He sent among them a Messenger (Muhammad SAW) from among themselves, reciting unto them His Verses (the Quran), and purifying them (from sins by their following him), and instructing them (in) the Book (the Quran) AND Al-Hikmah , while before that they had been in manifest error.

Anonymous said...

Quran wasn't reveled in a day or all at once because Allah wanted prophet(pbuh) to memorize it,understand it and take knowledge from it little by little.
It is disbelief to say " why wasn't it reveled in a day.
وَقَالَ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا۟ لَوْلَا نُزِّلَ عَلَيْهِ ٱلْقُرْءَانُ جُمْلَةً وَٰحِدَةً ۚ كَذَٰلِكَ لِنُثَبِّتَ بِهِۦ فُؤَادَكَ ۖ وَرَتَّلْنَٰهُ تَرْتِيلًا
And those who disbelieve say: "Why is not the Quran revealed to him all at once?" Thus (it is sent down in parts), that We may strengthen your heart thereby. And We have revealed it to you gradually, in stages. (It was revealed to the Prophet SAW in 23 years.).

But I agree with you following the path of Prophet (pbuh) is very important. This cannot be done without Hadiths.

Anonymous said...

From Surah 23.

"Were not My Signs rehearsed to you, and ye did but treat them as falsehood?" (105) They will say: "our Lord! Our misfortune overwhelmed us, and we became a people astray! (106) "Our Lord! bring us out of this: if ever we return (to Evil), then shall we be wrong-doers indeed!" (107) He will say: "Be ye driven into it (with ignominy)! And speak ye not to Me! (108) "A part of My servants there was, who used to pray 'our Lord! we believe; then do Thou forgive us, and have mercy upon us: For Thou art the Best of those who show mercy!" (109) "But ye treated them with ridicule, so much so that (ridicule of) them made you forget My Message while ye were laughing at them! (110) "I have rewarded them this Day for their patience and constancy: they are indeed the ones that have achieved Bliss..." (111) He will say: "What number of years did ye stay on earth?" (112) They will say: "We stayed a day or part of a day: but ask those who keep account." (113) He will say: "Ye stayed not but a little,- if ye had only known! (114) "Did ye then think that We had created you in jest, and that ye would not be brought back to Us (for account)?" (115) Therefore exalted be Allah, the King, the Reality: there is no god but He, the Lord of the Throne of Honour! (116) If anyone invokes, besides Allah, Any other god, he has no authority therefor; and his reckoning will be only with his Lord! and verily the Unbelievers will fail to win through! (117) So say: "O my Lord! grant Thou forgiveness and mercy for Thou art the Best of those who show mercy!" (118)

Researcher said...

A Question to the Quranist :

Without referring to the Hadith :

1. How was the Qur'an Revealed?

2. How does the Qur'an Recorded?

3. The Formal Compilation of the Qur'an?

Pleae give an insight to this?

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