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Friday, April 16, 2010

Was Jesus unaware of this heavenly contract?

After the last supper , Jesus (pbuh) leads his platoon/disciples, in the  middle of the night, to Gethsemane. Gethsemane  - oil press -  is a garden at the foot of the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem most famous as the place where Jesus prayed the night before his crucifixion.

He places eight of the eleven desciples at the entrance to the courtyard, commanding them : "Sit ye here,while I go and pray younder"  (Matthew 26:36).

"And he took with him peter
and the two sons of zebedee..
Then saith he unto them..
tarry ye here and watch with me.." (Matthew 26:37-38).

After placing his desciples in the proper places where they could defend him , he went and prayed alone...

"..and began to be sorrowful and very depressed. Then saith unto them, my soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even unto death..."

"And he went a little further,and fell on his face - Exactly like the Muslims does in the prayer). and prayed,saying, 'O my father , if it be possible , let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Matthew 26:37-39).

"And being in an agony, he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat was , as it were , great drops of blood falling down to the ground" (Luke 22:24).

For me as a muslim , I was told that Jesus was destined to die for the sins of mankind. That he was "being prepared for this vicarious sacrifice before the foundation of the world. That even before the material universe came into being , there was a contract between "Father and son" , and that in the year 4000 A.A.(After Adam) . God himself in the form of Jesus, as the second person from the enigmatic Trinity, was to get himself  hanged to redeem mankind from the Original Sin and their actual sins.

What I don't understand is that after all this preparations ( "call to arms" in the upper room , and the masterful deployment of forces at Gethsemane , and the blood-sweating prayer to the God of Mercy for help - notice God calling God! - it appears that Jesus knew nothing about the contract for his crucifixion.

Would any Christian care to answer my question ...

Was Jesus unaware of this heavenly contract?


N.Magdy said...

I would like to correct the errors in understanding the above mentioned holy verses:

1) Jesus DID NOT take the disciples with him to Gasemane Garden to defend him (I will show later that he was capable of stopping the jews himself but did not want to, as he wanted to save us by dying instead of us - which should have been our punishment for the sins we do every day). On the contrary, Jesus took them because he wanted to TEACH his disciples 3 most important lessons by WATCHING him and being NEAR him this night (even though he himself does not need these lessons for he is God, but he was teaching them practically):
a- to pray all night without tiring whenever in hardship - by seeing him agonize in prayer and telling Peter, John and Jacob who were with him "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak." (Matthew 26:41)
b- one should submit to the will of God whatever it is even if God wants our hardship to continue, not because he is cruel but because we must have faith that it is eventually for our good even if we don't know what this good is. As Jesus said and wants us to say" O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt"(Matthew 26:41)
c- Jesus also wanted the disciples to be witnesses that when the jews came to arrest him that night to crucify him, he did not want his disciples to kill and fight but on the contrary wanted them (and us) to be kind to and love even the enemies - which is his eternal message. Jesus did that by immediately healing the ear of one of the people who arrested him, that Peter cut off in anger, saying to Peter " Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be? "(Matthew 26:52-54). By this he is teaching us that forgiveness - no matter what - is STRENGTH not WEAKNESS, for the easiest thing to do is to follow human impulse and fight evil with evil, but it takes real power of will to forgive.

These are the 3 reasons why he took the disciples with him to the Garden

N.Magdy said...

2) When Jesus said during prayer "my soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even unto death..." and was sweating blood, it was not because he was afraid of what will happen to him, but because he was sad that mankind - his children from Adam onwards- had betrayed him (the God) and did all these horrifying sins which only he knew and which he was now carrying on his shoulders and about to die willingly in our place for so we do not go to hell. Imagine the unmeasurable size of human sins from Adam onwards!! For example even those Jesus healed and cared for, had turned against him and now wanted to kill him. That's why he was sad, not for himself but sad for us and what we have become.

3) There is no such thing in Christianity as "contract" between the Father and the Son (we do not phrase it like this). A contract exists between 2 people or entities that are separate from each other who make a deal. This is not the case here as the Father and Son are both the SAME GOD - 1 being (along with the Holy Spirit), not separate beings. It was the WILL (not contract) of this almighty God since before creation that he would save us from our sins (which he knew in advance would happen because he is God)by taking human form (Jesus) and dying instead of us. Why did he then create us if he knew we would be so much trouble? It's because of the love in his heart. He still wanted to create us, share all his glory with us and make us happy even if it meant that he sacrifices himself for us so we do not perish.

4) Therefore since the day Jesus came down to earth he KNEW and WAS PREPARING all along for the reason of his descent - his crucifixion. And he gave his followers many verses before that telling them he would be crucified (written henceforth). As was explained earlier, what happened in Gasemane Garden wasn't a display of unawarenes of anything, but was to teach his disciples the most important lesson of life (so they can teach it to others later): how to deal with hardships without losing faith in God, which is the ultimate test for any believer. Verses Jesus said earlier showing he knew he was to be crucified:
- “For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” (Matthew 12:40)
- “When they came together in Galilee, he said to them, "The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men.”(Matthew 17:22)
- “Just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." (Matthew 20:28)
- “because he was teaching his disciples. He said to them, "The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise." (Marc 9:31)

N.Magdy said...

5) In case someone is wondering why we need God to die in our place to remove our sins and save us from hell, this is a simplified explanation for it:
- Who told Adam & Eve not to sin? God
- What was the punishment he told them they would get if they sinned? Eternal Death (i.e. perish in hell)
- Therefore when they sinned or when we sin, who is that sin DIRECTED towards (whom did they or whom do we betray)? The INFINITE God who told them (and us) not to sin
- How big in size does that make our sins? INFINITE because the God we directed it towards is INFINITE
- How big does that make our punishment that God stated? INFINITE DEATH (i.e. ALL humans must go to hell FOREVER) for their INFINITE sins
- Would God simply forgive us and remove the punishment so no one would be punished? God would definitely forgive us (if we repent) but he would NOT remove the punishment OTHERWISE HE WOULD NOT BE FAIR العدل الالهي
(even on earth here, whenever a criminal does something wrong, punishment must be handed out from court because this is JUSTICE - they don't just set him free if he says he won't repeat it)
- So how does God solve the problem to remove the punishment from us so we don't die (in hell), and at the same time fulfill the punishment and his justice? Someone else would have to take the punishment in place of ALL the humans, and must have the following characteristics:
1) he must be without sin (to be worthy and pure enough to carry our sins instead of us)
2) he must be human (because those who sinned were humans)
3) he must be infinite (to carry our infinite sins : cannot be carried by a limited being)otherwise humans will have to perish INFINITELY

The only being in the universe who is without sin and infinite is GOD almighty. This is why, if he wanted us to be saved from the just punishment which we deserve, then he himself would have to die in our place. How is that possible when he is not human? This is why he took human form (Jesus) and came to earth and died in our place. But because he is also God, he raised himself from death and thus defeated death, the punishment and ended it taking all humans with him to heaven (past and future people ONLY if they repent their sins. If they don't repent then they do not benefit from Jesus' sacrifice and they still go to hell). His blood shed for us removes sins of all humans till the end of time because he is infinite (ON ONLY ONE CONDITION : IF WE REPENT THOSE SINS).
This is why Jesus Christ is called son of God - not because he is a biological son or because God married or any such wrong ideas, but because God took human form and thus we can see him and talk to him directly. And of course no one denies that God can be in all places at the same time - in heaven, as well as on earth as well as inside us (the Holy Spirit)

N.Magdy said...

Sorry I missed explaining the following: when Jesus said " O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt"(Matthew 26:39), it does not mean that it is not Jesus' will (it is his will because he is God and he had already decided that since the beginning of time). He was talking on behalf of the weak human body in general not on his own tongue. Since he was at this moment in human form representing it, he wanted to teach us humans how to pray and how to put God's will before ours.

Grettel- said...

I am learning about Christianity every day here. I like this. :) Except the part where Jesus is son of God I did seem to learn at school the same things that Dr Noha says here.

So for me. It sounds quiet logical what she tells.

TheSphere said...

Okay , so, Jesus was teaching them how to behave in prayer..

The question is :

Did he also teach them how to be rude and question God as in Mark 15:34:
"And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me ?. ??

Grettel- said...

Still I am sure of the fact that doubting God is a good thing for your believe.

Ok don't get rude. That's stupid. That's always stupid.

But was there no time you doubted God? I did. And finding him back made my believe stronger then ever before.

Don't forget my dear friend. Jesus was just human. As you are (I presume), I am and we all are.

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